Faith Shows the Emperor has No Clothes

The emperor parades around in public wearing his new (invisible) clothesSuppose a religion worshipped a god that didn’t exist.  How could it endure?  Wouldn’t it be immediately exposed as a fraud?

Not if it turned thinking on its head and argued that not reason but faith* is actually the proper way to look at the world, or at least the religious part of it.  Fellow believers would encourage this faith-trumps-reason worldview.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and just have faith!

Defending an invisible God and celebrating faith is exactly what Christians would do if their religion were manmade.  Faith is always the last resort.  If there were convincing evidence, Christians would be celebrating that, not faith.

Augustine said, “Do not understand so you may believe; instead believe so you may understand.”  But why?  You don’t do that in any other area of life.  You don’t pick a belief system first and then select facts to support it; it’s the other way around.  You follow the facts where they lead.

Faith is permission to believe without good reason.  Believing something because it is reasonable and rational requires no faith at all.  If you don’t have enough evidence to cross an intellectual gulf to the belief on the other side, and if only faith will get you there, then don’t cross that gulf.

It’s a bizarre world where faith not only trumps reason but is celebrated since we use reason all the time to get through life.  Only by using reason and following the evidence—that is, rejecting beliefs built on faith—did we build the technology-filled world we live in today.

In fact, faith is the worst decision-making and analytical tool possible.  You don’t use faith to cross a busy street, or learn French, or treat malaria.  It provides no method for distinguishing between true and false propositions.  Faith doesn’t provide a reliable answer but simply encourages an end to questioning.  It’s even worse than guessing, because with a guess, you’re at least open to revisiting a decision in the face of new evidence.  Not so with faith.

No one relies on faith unless their god weren’t just invisible but was actually nonexistent.

Photo credit: Wikipedia

*By faith, I mean belief without sufficient evidence.  Christians might respond that their definition of faith is identical to that for trust: belief in accord with sufficient evidence.  In my experience, however, Christians use each of these definitions for faith, switching them as necessary.  If they only stuck to the idea that faith and trust were identical, that might clear up a lot of problems.

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90 thoughts on “Faith Shows the Emperor has No Clothes

  1. Christian monks seized Hypatia on the street, beat her, and dragged her body to a church where they mutilated her flesh with sharp tiles and burned her remains. I guess playing instruments and looking at stars was considered magic and being a woman well that just sealed her fate.

  2. you guys have no idea what True faith in the TRUE Christ IS AND what TRUE Christian life is. and you fail to recognize the hypocrisy of those who say they are christian but are instead a mock, an insult, and the very opposite of Christ(hundreds of denominations + the mother of harlots the roman catholic whore- they are anti christian – apostate).
    You atheist can’t explain where you came from, where you’re heading to, can’t give any value to your life, you are no better than the beasts of the field for that matter. Let me think, you really believe you are just one of them: animals, so that’s why you behave so foolish, you just acting like you were told…ha? i feel pity for atheists, must be a terrible life knowing you’re no better than a rock or insect or ape or e.t. :)))
    man these devils really got you fooled, but you know what i think it was very very easy because you wanted a life without God, without consequence for your actions, human law ain’t workin’ folks, you see that right!? In Satan’s kingdom he reigns in disguise and produces only havoc, sorrows and panic, the impostor king and god of this world is truly naked and unseen acting behind the scenes, but you are blind cos he’s signs and symbols are everywhere, he has millions of accomplices both willing and unwilling, you are serving him no doubt! i once was there too, my heart was changed when Christ came along giving me a new life, he didn’t let me in despair, a captive in Babylon
    He certainly was to your hearts too, you sent Him away, He’s your Creator and He came to save you, and you turned your back on Him, spit in His face, you don’t deserve salvation, but that’s alright, cause non of us do! we are all sinners, born this way, we must not die this way!!!!!! But Yeshua who created us, in His perfect Mercy and Love come down on Earth and died for our sins, the most terrible death, he paid the price with the whole pain of hell, so that you don’t have to do anything else than put your faith in him and surrender!!!!
    I pray that until that day comes when you will surely die, you have a change of heart and accept Him, pray for that chance as well, even on your death bed.
    What’s soon coming is the Judgement, Betta repent quick!

    • you guys have no idea what True faith in the TRUE Christ IS [and blah blah blah]

      If the particular beliefs of your church or denomination are correct and the others are all wrong, make that case. Simply stating it does very little to advance your argument.

      You atheist can’t explain where you came from, where you’re heading to, can’t give any value to your life [and yadda yadda yadda]

      Why imagine that your little sect of one religion has all the answers? Just because?

      Why not pick some other religion and imagine that it has all the answers?

      Better: why not see that not only most religions are made up, but all are likely made up. Roll up your sleeves and help improve the one life that we know with certainty that we have. Facing reality is actually pretty empowering.

  3. This is a typical misunderstanding of what the Christian faith really is. For the Christian, the faith is not a faith in the existence of God, but rather faith in the promise which was given by God. The letter to the Hebrews addresses this in what is now chapter 11, explaining, among other things, that Abraham was called to go to a place he would later inherit by faith, which was credited to him as righteousness. This is the faith with which we live: not believing in something/someone because we simply wish to believe it/them without having reason to do so, but in the promise which gives hope. Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice. We do not guess in favor of a deity, but we know quite well that God exists and has redeemed us from our sins.

      • The latter does not exist for the Christian. Secular eyes see it as hopeful wishing, if you will, but they are stuck on the outside – unable to understand. What I am saying is that the understanding of God’s existence is based on knowledge, which, not unlike Abram (Abraham), was revealed to us when we were called out of our homeland.

        You will or, rather, someone will inevitably ask, “How did you acquire this knowledge?” To which I would reinforce the prior point, which is that it is revelatory knowledge. It is important to address this, though, for a mere study of the natural is inadequate to assess whether there is a God at all and, for this reason, we must rely on philosophical reasoning, which can only lead one to general theism, at best, or “revelatory knowledge.” Reason is inadequate to discover both the existence and will of God. (Aquinas was certain that one could ascertain the existence of God by way of a lifetime of diligent inquiry, though, explains that due to temporal needs, physical impairments, and indolence makes this rare and concluded that if reason were the only way, we would forever be trapped in the great darkness of ignorance. I, however, am far more pessimistic.)

      • My question isn’t “How did you acquire this knowledge?” but rather “Why do you think you’re right?”

        It sounds like you’re saying that you don’t use evidence and reason to conclude that God exists. In that case, I wonder why you’re not deluding yourself.

        • How would one use evidence and reason to conclude that God exists? More so, how would one use evidence and reason to conclude that Jesus was and is the sole Savior of mankind, the Son of God, or the soon-to-come Judge of the world? See, I do not reject reason when it is of use. How could I? I have spent too much time studying philosophy personally and through collegiate studies. At some point, though, reason and the need for evidence become useless, stumbling blocks (specifically in determining or discerning [anything] about the supernatural).

          Kierkegaard argued that we believe by virtue of the absurd, wherein we wholeheartedly believe certain paradoxes at the very core of our faith (Christianity as a whole), which offends human reason. He essentially proceeds to argue quite sufficiently that claiming one could be reasoned into heaven is preposterous and blasphemous.

        • Philip:

          How would one use evidence and reason to conclude that God exists?

          “God answers prayers” and “God performs miracles” and so on are claims that can be studied with science. These are claims that God leaves marks in this world.

          At some point, though, reason and the need for evidence become useless, stumbling blocks

          That’s what a religion based totally on wishful thinking would argue to cover up the fact that there’s no there there. You abandon your reason, and you can believe anything. But why is that a good thing? If God exists, you think he’s going to praise you for discarding his most precious gift to you down the toilet?

          Kierkegaard argued that we believe by virtue of the absurd, wherein we wholeheartedly believe certain paradoxes at the very core of our faith (Christianity as a whole), which offends human reason. He essentially proceeds to argue quite sufficiently that claiming one could be reasoned into heaven is preposterous and blasphemous.

          The bigger the faith gulf you cross the better you are? That’s insane. You’d laugh at someone from another religion doing this, wouldn’t you?

        • Bob,

          I have lost the reply option on some of the responses to me, so forgive this new post.

          “God answers prayers” and “God performs miracles” and so on are claims that can be studied with science. These are claims that God leaves marks in this world.

          How does one lead to the supernatural cause of a natural effect by way of scientific research? You are entirely too hopeful in the process [scientific] itself. At the end of the matter, science can only determine that the natural effect had a natural cause because it does not have room for the supernatural; this is why we have philosophers and theologians. The request for scientific proof in the existence of God merely provides another outlet to justify rejection because of its limited sight.

          “That’s what a religion based totally on wishful thinking would argue to cover up the fact that there’s no there there. You abandon your reason, and you can believe anything. But why is that a good thing? If God exists, you think he’s going to praise you for discarding his most precious gift to you down the toilet?”

          Precious gift, yes; however, this gift is tainted by sin. Human reason demands sight and will only accept was is seen (either through tangible or logic evidence). This same need led the Israelites to give up the God who led them out of Egypt and displayed His power among them for idols made of wood and precious metals. More so, the same need compelled the zealots to ask for signs from Jesus, though He was healing many in front of them.

          “The bigger the faith gulf you cross the better you are? That’s insane. You’d laugh at someone from another religion doing this, wouldn’t you?”

          Not quite on both questions. Merely the acceptance and submission to Jesus as Lord and Savior is a prospect which is offensive to reason itself and a gap one man cannot cross by reason. God’s existence can be shown as necessary through philosophical means, but what is most essential is lost.

        • PN:

          I have lost the reply option on some of the responses to me, so forgive this new post.

          Replies can be nested only so far. In some cases, you need to scroll up to find Reply.

          How does one lead to the supernatural cause of a natural effect by way of scientific research? You are entirely too hopeful in the process [scientific] itself.

          “Supernatural” becomes natural once science understands and accepts it as a cause. Seeing through solid objects was supernatural until x-rays.

          The claim that God acts in our world is a scientifically-testable claim, at least in theory.

          Precious gift, yes; however, this gift is tainted by sin.

          Reason is certainly imperfect, but it’s the best tool we have. You can claim that you have some sort of supernatural insight, but if you want to convince anyone else, the tool to use is reason.

          Merely the acceptance and submission to Jesus as Lord and Savior is a prospect which is offensive to reason itself and a gap one man cannot cross by reason.

          Nicely put.

          God’s existence can be shown as necessary through philosophical means, but what is most essential is lost.

          I’m afraid that years of debating with apologists have given me a very bad view of philosophy. I see it now as mostly a smokescreen. There’s probably reasonable, useful philosophy out there, but it’s being shouted down by the nonsense.

    • Sheep ? I ask you ? Sheeeep?
      Flock off!
      I didn’t vote for this guy, and…. define a sin?
      I understand that this Jesus (born a Palestinian by birthplace btw) …went walkabout for a while, learnt some middle -eastern culture with regards to good karma came back to Jerusalem, looked at the churches and the rich hypocrites running that show and quite rightly had a dicky fit and went berserk on them all.
      Now, I suggest the mighty mullahs, the pompous pope and the millionaire TV evangelists take a look at themselves and consider that seriously.
      Or; are you all just a bit choosy for ‘convenience’ sake at what your Bible says?

      • It is my contention that you may need to review the Scripture a bit more.

        (Bethlehem was a city in Judah before being taken by the Muslims and far before Palestinian possession)

        Jesus went around preaching repentance and the arrival of the kingdom of heaven. He healed the sick and lame, stood against the hypocritical Jewish zealots, warned of the coming judgment, and took the cross to bear our sins; this is just a short summation of the whole.

        As for the definition of sin, it is merely the act of missing the mark that God has established (All have sinned and fall short…). As for picking and choosing, I contend that you’re merely offering generalizations based on easy targets and ignoring the ones who faithfully live out their faith.

        SDG

        • Bethlehem is a Palestinian city in the central West Bank, approximately 8 kilometers (5.0 mi) south of Jerusalem, with a population of about 30000 people.

          Can’t believe this even when the evidence is there and factual there is room for dispute… I suppose faith moved it …. conveniently again !?

          See I don’t dispute this man may have existed and his intentions were probably honourable. However; you have to remember the people who lived back then, were simple folk, full of fanciful ideas, gullible, easily led, extremely superstitious, poorly educated; if at all. Is it any wonder that Mark’s gospel is not a true account but just a copied tale of other stories. Visit the main square in Marrakech to watch how this happen’s in practice and how young Arabs listen to the old storytellers tell their ‘soap opera’ tales. The youngsters then pick up the stories and embellish them, to make them more astounding and thus earn a few more dollars and shekels. The Immaculate Conception and The Passion are ripping good tales, but really; just imagine how more convincing the New Testament would have been with CGI. They might have even fooled my dog?!

  4. Sir, i belong to no sect, I firmly believe in the Word of God, the absolute Truth written in the King James BIBLE(for the English speaking people), i fallow no other authority here on Earth, am no member of no institution(ALL are infiltrated anyways), we the believers of the whole world are the church!
    All you know about the Bible, God and the Church is a lie fed to you by demonic hosts(working through the Vatican – the most evil organisation on the face of the Earth) operating from within the other dimensions(thus invisible – is you don’t actually summon them, proof for this are spiritualism, every king of witchcraft and the occult, just to name a few) de facto ruling the world using deceptions of every kind, masquerading as anything(dead relatives, ghosts, saints, all sorts of gods, aliens, etc.) deceiving the whole world through the power of sin, which people love. that is why you deny God, you don’t want to admit and repent of this curse.
    tHE Bible is perfect and contradicts no real science, darwinism is a silly joke, a religion actually, because you have to believe it to make any sense. no science there….
    My strong belief in the Bible comes from it proving to me through hundreds upon hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, it’s consistency(written in the span of ca. 2000 years, by more than 40 authors, the Bible is a collection of 66 books who don’t contradict, complete and explain themselves PERFECTLY), accuracy, insight and documentation( it is the most documented and attested book in history), that it is the perfect preserved WORD Of GOD!
    The Bible is His message for us, a simple message, the BEST NEWS IN HISTORY!
    We are all sinners, all our good works are a filthy rag in front of GOD, so they can’t save us, no human authority or action can save us. ONLY GOD who came down on Earth, lived a perfect Life(as Jesus Christ) and died spilling His sinless Blood paying the price instead of us, conquered death, is resurrected, is up in Heaven but will return, to crush this SYSTEM to establish HIS RULE, HIS PERFECT REIGN for 1000 years on Earth, then JUDGEMENT, then ETERNITY., believe, repent, surrender, obey, you’ll be renewed and the Holy Ghost will fill and sanctify!

  5. PS : i had to do with the dark side, not big time but very tangible
    i can prove with documentation the influence on society that demonic agent poses, how it degenerated the whole earth and brought it back to like it was in Noah’s time.
    this is very visible, but the spell is very strong, your eyes are shut, your ears won’t listen, your heart is rock, you seek knowledge in men, but all in vain, if you won’t repent soon God will send a delusion so strong you never will!

  6. If I may link you to some sites who already have part of the proof detailed:

    http://www.jeremiahproject.com/newworldorder/

    http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

    http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-reliability-bible

    Any dispute on the bible’s text if diligently studied and prayed for(i personally believe there could be some “traps” or challenges for the unbelieving, things which might seem contradictory at first glance but which actually make sense) will be revealed, there are no errors!

    • I’m afraid I don’t think much of your Reasons to Believe link.

      In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel’s Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

      (Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 10^5.)

      Probability that the authors of Matthew and Luke had read this bit of Micah and could’ve added it to give some credibility to their stories = 1!

      🙂

  7. Having myself been caught up in the layers of cloud-like circular logic of christian faith for years, I can only say that it only takes one piece of sticky logic to unravel the absolute avalanche of nothingness that supports faith. Even just reading the responses here, trying to justify faith as a foundation, I’m reminded of the biblical story about building your house on the sand. It continues to surprise me that most christians don’t recognized this story as an appropriate analogy to their faith, until I recall how long it took me to awake from the Matrix. Love the post.

  8. you guys are so wisdom limited you even dare to quote the Bible against God!
    your err makes you even more foolish than the man who builds his house on sand, because you raised your castle of ignorance in the deep abyss of the dark sea, far away from true light and the breath of life, you dwell on artificial principles on this earth, but why? your existence has thus no meaning, not even to you, but you don’t care, without Christ you are nothing, you fight on evil’s side, but not even admitting it.
    It is clear you will continually refuse any Bible evidence – it’s all around you, creation in it’s grandeur and complexity is evidence enough of the Creator, you are cowards, because you can’t explain it’s complexity you cling to these brain reduced “science” myths.
    I feel pity for you, may God open your eyes, LORD have mercy!

    • you guys are so wisdom limited you even dare to quote the Bible against God!

      Let’s consider the two possibilities. One is that God exists, he created everything, and the Bible is the accurate source of information about him. And the other is that this entire religion is an invention just like all the other religions. Let’s consider the two possibilities with an open mind.

      You want to know the truth, right? Or do you only care about following ideas that are pleasing?

      • you need courage and strength to follow CHRIST who is the TRUTH I am already convinced of that, because He has revealed himself to me through the BIBLE working to my heart .

        Bob believe me i was in this world, i enjoyed it’s fleshly pleasures, danced the dance with evil, seen a few demons, but the LORD God rescued me. I mean He personally stepped in to show me the way, through my heart, because i asked the big questions, turned stones, wanted truth, wanted wisdom. I would have been forever lost, should have I continued on my sinful path, I would have loved it too much to repent.
        an “open mind: approach here will simply come to that old conclusion: if you are right, nothing happens really, i lose an argument, we die, that’s the end of that. but if i am right, you are heading for a terrible place for eternity for you’ve heard the truth 10000 times repented not turned not to GOD.

        it’s a risky game but the catch is here on the unbeliever, we Christians very much enjoy life with GOD, we fight the good fight(spiritual), receive rewards, we care not for flesh pleasures(I personally am in a weak position right now – LORD have mercy)receive punishments, but we rebuke satan, resisting him, we have all joys, even in sorrows, we rejoice, see the difference…
        we know we have a mission, we know it’s tough, He sad it will be, we are hated and laughed at, because for you our faith is foolish (for us your belief is hell damned ignorance); but we are just pilgrims here on earth, our final home is waiting for us in a dimension no SF writer could ever imagine, where everything is pure splendor in The LIGHT OF THE ALMIGHTY. Praise Him!
        We have all proof, ALL PROOF, we just need to strengthen our faith and pray more, we have a mission too, to do the work necessary that the Holy Spirit may save as many fellow humans as possible. We (who really study the Bible)have complex understanding of the univers and creation-much closer to the TRUTH(for not all will be revealed in this time) than modern science, we bask in HIS GLORY, giving praise and thanks, lot’s of thanks all the time. you see it’s hard but it’s a pleasure to serve HIM!

        On the other hand, nonbelievers have, well you tell me what you have…

        • Rev:

          I mean He personally stepped in to show me the way, through my heart

          Your personal experience doesn’t help me much, as you can appreciate.

          an “open mind: approach here will simply come to that old conclusion: if you are right, nothing happens really, i lose an argument, we die, that’s the end of that. but if i am right, you are heading for a terrible place for eternity for you’ve heard the truth 10000 times repented not turned not to GOD.

          Good old Pascal’s Wager! Look into it and I think you’ll see that it’s not much of an argument.

          On the other hand, nonbelievers have, well you tell me what you have…

          Oh, y’know—just reality. Just knowing that we didn’t check our brains at the door in return for a pat on the head and a pretty story. We figure that by facing reality rather than fairy tales we can actually do some good in the world—improve the one life we know we have. Instead of considering this life the filthy mud room of a grand palace that’s waiting for us in heaven (or maybe not, since we have no evidence of such a thing).

    • Thanks for the link. I’ve listened to loads of debates. I’ve certainly heard of “the Great Debate,” though I’m not sure I’ve listened to it.

      If there are specific apologetic points in that debate that are powerful (or that you’ve come across elsewhere), share a few with us.

      • Hey Bob,

        Sorry it took a while to get back to you. It has been a while since I listened to the debate but what I appreciated most is that Bahnsen seems to get to the point by exposing the presuppositions of the Stein and admitting to his. I think that is where the debate needs to take place. My presuppostion is that God exists and that he communicated to his creation through the Scriptures. While the atheist’s presupostion is materialism or naturalism. Unfortuanatly, this leads to a place of extreme skeptisim even to the point that you may or may not exist. Obviously, I am dumbing the argument down a lot but if you listen you will get what Bahnsen is getting at. If you would like another link, its a shorter program, you can look up the “Unbelievable Radio” program with Sye Ten Bruggencate and Paul Baird. It was a good interaction.

        Oh, and sorry about the King James Onlyist who seems to be hounding you. We all have crazy people that associate with our positions one way or another.

        • ACB:

          what I appreciated most is that Bahnsen seems to get to the point by exposing the presuppositions of the Stein and admitting to his.

          Yeah, there’s a bit of value in that, but what I’ve heard in that vein is “As a Christian, I have loads of presuppositions, but that’s OK because my atheist opponent has them, too.” It’s an appeal to a symmetry that really isn’t there.

          The scientist/atheist doesn’t imagine that he’s going to hell if he doesn’t believe the right things.

          I think that is where the debate needs to take place. My presuppostion is that God exists and that he communicated to his creation through the Scriptures. While the atheist’s presupostion is materialism or naturalism.

          Don’t imagine that my presupposition is that I declare that God (or anything supernatural) doesn’t exist, because that’s not the case. God could exist (Show me some good evidence! Please!) but the evidence drives me to the tentative conclusion that God doesn’t exist. I could be convinced otherwise tomorrow.

          Reminds me of something Greg Kokul says on his STR podcast. He says that he doesn’t just want to tell (or teach?) you what to think but how to think. Teaching someone good critical thinking skills sounds great, but telling them what to think?! Huh? Are we in the Soviet Union?

          If an atheist friend felt that, after continued research, that God does exist, then that’s what he should believe. Same for me. Wherever the evidence leads, that’s where I go, even if it’s to Christianity.

          Unfortuanatly, this leads to a place of extreme skeptisim even to the point that you may or may not exist.

          There’s no evidence that pushes me there, so this is not a meaningful direction for me.

          We all have crazy people that associate with our positions one way or another.

          Oh yeah, I realize that Christianity is a big tent. There are nuts on both sides.

        • sir do you only have a philosophy of God or truly have a relationship with Him? What Vatican created pseudo bible do you follow to your perdition? Is this the way a christian defends his faith? Am I crazy for trusting the LORD? Have i offended Bob more than he did GOD?
          watch out sir “your positions” may not Christ’s!

      • Are the laws of logic universal? unchanging? invisible? If so the atheist has some sort of faith in those laws. The real problem is that it seems to be irrational to assert such claims because one needs the laws of logic to prove the laws of logic which breaks the laws of logic by being curricular. One must have something bigger, greater and eternal in order to uphold these laws that we live by every single day and that is the God of the Bible.

        • ACB:

          Are the laws of logic universal? unchanging? invisible? If so the atheist has some sort of faith in those laws.

          Not faith–trust. Imagine one of our foundational propositions was 1 + 1 = 2. We come up with this, and it’s untested. Unfortunately, it appears to be a basic proposition, not built on anything else. So what do we do? Do we just hope that it’s accurate? Do we imagine that it’s no more valid that 1 + 1 = 17 or any other arithmetic assertion? Of course not–we test it. Gradually, the proposition deserves our trust.

          One must have something bigger, greater and eternal in order to uphold these laws that we live by every single day and that is the God of the Bible.

          Even if we grant that the atheist is in a terrible pickle by not having grounding for the basic propositions (which seems laughable to me, since science and math trundle on, happily tossing out yet more approximations to the truth like Willy Wonka tosses out chocolate), how is the Christian any better? You just assert “Oh, I know! We’ll just say that God did it. There ya go–problem solved!” and everything is peachy?

          Gotta have evidence for this fantastically bold assertion to be taken seriously.

      • So, the laws of logic are not eternal and unchanging but you live your life like they are. You see a car coming down the road and get out of the way because you know that if it hits you it will hurt you. The real issue is that you have no foundation to believe in these things. To simply assert it deserves your trust doesn’t get to the matter because for all you know tomorrow 1+1 could be 3.

        • the laws of logic are not eternal and unchanging

          I didn’t say that.

          you have no foundation to believe in these things

          Of course I do! These assertions (logic, arithmetic, etc.) are testable.

          And you haven’t shown me that you’re in any better position than I am. If you can understand or trust these assertions any better than I can, show me. (And, obviously, “Because God exists, hallelujah!” is no argument at all. 🙂 )

  9. “The last and favorite resort of the clergy when they are questioned too closely is: their questioners simply don’t understand; they are “uninstructed and amateurish.” “Unless you accept our interpretation of the texts,” the layman is told, “you obviously do not understand them. And if you don’t understand them, you have no right to question our interpretation of them!”
    And so the layman is put in his place. The guarded degree, the closed corporation, the technical vocabulary, these are the inner redoubt, the inviolable stronghold of usurped authority. Locked safe within the massive and forbidding walls of institution and formality lies what the Egyptians called “the king’s secret,” the secret of controlling the past.”
    Hugh Nibley

    • I’ve already cleared the name of the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST in this discussion, the poppery and all religion for that matter is of the devil! TRUE BIBLE BELIEVERS stand in CHRIST only!! HE is the TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIFE!

  10. I am aware that I am highly unlikely to change anyone’s mind, but I feel that I must say my piece. I cannot prove conclusively to anyone the existence of God, but at the same time, no one can prove to me conclusively that He doesn’t exist. However, I believe He does exist and that He loves His creation more that I can imagine. You mentioned that people don’t pick beliefs first and then look for the facts to support them. I believe that everyone does at one point in their life. Childhood is a time where we believe things first and then receive the facts to back them up. The grass is green, the sky is blue, and the sun rises and sets. As children, we don’t know how this happens, we know it does. We can see it, but with regards to the ins and outs of why, we don’t know. We believe that it will continue to happen until we learn how in school. So indirectly, faith leads to understanding. I am aware that my example is a weak one, and you are welcome to tear it apart as you please.

    Thank you for the read, its been interesting.

    • I cannot prove conclusively to anyone the existence of God, but at the same time, no one can prove to me conclusively that He doesn’t exist.

      True, but no one can prove that unicorns don’t exist and you don’t go through life assuming that they do. Or if that’s a bad example because unicorns aren’t especially important, consider Shiva. If he exists, you really, really want to know, because he could have a big impact on your life, good or bad. The person who acts as if Shiva exists simply because no one can prove that he doesn’t isn’t acting responsibly.

      You mentioned that people don’t pick beliefs first and then look for the facts to support them.

      I think they do, but I wish they wouldn’t! Again, not a very responsible way to use the brain that some say was God’s greatest gift.

      So indirectly, faith leads to understanding.

      There’s faith (which I don’t have much use for) and then there’s trust, which we all find very useful. We can’t personally do the science, but we trust that science delivers pretty reliable results. This is belief based on evidence.

      Thank you for the read, its been interesting.

      Christians often don’t want to consider their foundations of their faith, so I applaud your doing so.

  11. I’m sorry. But that was the dumbest argument for reason I’ve read in a long while.

    God Bless You,

    Christopher

    P.S. Read my article on Faith and maybe you’ll understand what that means so you can present a better argument.. Then we can talk.

    • If you start a post by saying “I’m sorry” then maybe the following words shouldn’t come out of your mouth/fingers. I am a Christian but saying that someone’s argument for reason is dumb yet giving no reasoning yourself is immature and not worthy of conversation.

      God Bless You.

      Travis

  12. So…your “reasonable” comeback is to make a personal slur? LOL The argument in the original article is that reason trumps faith because faith is unreasonable. Might as well say that theology is useless because it can’t be proven scientifically. They are both nothing arguments. Regarding reason and faith, I could argue that pure reason is useless because there is no faith involved. Who’s right? Answer: That is an equally stupid proposition as it demonstrates an equal ignorance the opposing position. Ergo, I suggested you and the original author read my article on Faith, before we talk. Unless you or he wish to take the “unreasonable” position of not approaching the truth.

    • So faith = trust? If the word “faith” is ambiguous, then do us all a favor and always use the word “trust.” Seriously–give it a try and tell us how that goes. My prediction is that you’ll in fact find that the words are not interchangeable, that trust and faith mean different things. That trust means belief built on a solid foundation of evidence that you could use to convince someone else.

      And faith is for when you don’t have that solid foundation. When you’re taking a leap–a leap of faith.

      Faith begets faith.

      Wow–talk about building on a foundation of sand!

      I understand how you can get faith. My question is why that’s a good thing.

      that was the dumbest argument for reason I’ve read in a long while.

      Your article sort of defines faith for us. OK, but here again it doesn’t justify why you’d want to have any. And this doesn’t help me understand your original point that my defense of reason was dumb.

      • First, I asked you to read it and THEN we could talk. Second, you din’t defend reason, you said reason was above faith because you think faith is unreasonable.

        OK. “dumb” was a poor coice of words. I should have said ignorant. Now that you have a better understanding of faith, we can begin a dialogue.

      • Avoidance….. sigh.

        Bob:

        Doesn’t trust anything.
        Has no faith in anything or anyone.
        Doesn’t believe in anything.
        Isn’t used to being questioned…

        Is that rational, Bob? Is it even reasonable.

        How about science? Do you “trust” science?

        Or even 1+1=2 (that’s funny). I mean that’s a bit simplistic but we can even use that since Bob refuses to answer the simple question.

        Do you believe/trust/ have faith that 1+1=2, Bob? Of course you do. Why, though? You were taught it in school. You read it in abook. you counted it out on your fingers and used blocks and have used this simple formula for years and years. Why? Why does 1+1=2? And does it always equal 2? Are you sure?
        Now, what about science. Atheists like to point at science as proof that God does not exist. I love science. Probably my favorite scientist of all time was Sir Isaac Newton. According to this mega genius, nothing is ever created or destroyed. That’s a foundational principal of science. Nothing is ever created or destroyed. It just changes form or states, etc.
        It also signals the existence of God. Think about it.
        OK Bob. If you want me to tell you why, you’ll have to respond to what I’ve actually said so far. I gave you a chance to go first and you avoided that opportunity. So go ahead.

        • CCR:

          Avoidance….. sigh.

          Good catch. There’s probably something about faith that troubles me. My guess is that I’m actually a Bible-thumping Christian but am too embarrassed to admit it.

          Doesn’t trust anything.

          You need to read my replies to you. I’ve made it clear that I do.

          Isn’t used to being questioned…

          Another good catch. When I’m questioned, I realize that the shaky rationalization for atheism is in jeopardy so I lash out in anger.

          Or something.

          How about science? Do you “trust” science?

          Yup.

          Do you believe/trust/ have faith that 1+1=2, Bob?

          Trust.

          Why, though?

          You’re right that I was taught it in school. More importantly, though, it has proven itself to be reliable; hence, it has earned my trust.

          Why? Why does 1+1=2?

          Dunno. Don’t much care. Should I? And does your position have something relevant to say about this?

          Now, what about science. Atheists like to point at science as proof that God does not exist.

          You can complain about this proof to those that think this way. I don’t.

          According to this mega genius, nothing is ever created or destroyed.

          Who cares what Newton said? If the topic is the history of science, then of course that’s an interesting question. But if the question is modern science, I say again: who cares what Newton said? Newton also thought that there was something in alchemy, but he was wrong.

          I get my science from today’s Science. I have little use for quotes/anecdotes from the past.

          But back to your point: so nothing is ever created or destroyed. So what?

  13. Mark 12:28-31
    One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the debate. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength.’ the second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

    1 Corinthians 13:13
    Three things will last forever – faith, hope, and love- and the greatest of these is love.

    To the people that replied in defense of their Christian faith using rude language, and offensive rhetoric, as a brother in Christ I feel that I must recall you to love. God is love, if you can’t share love then you can’t share God; and if you can’t share God then defending the foundation of your faith does no good to anybody.

    • Snap! youngearth has pulled back the curtain and found that science is all faith. No evidence at all.

      That we’re now using software and electricity and LCD and microelectronics and the internet and all the rest is just a smokescreen put up by The Enemy® to make us think that science delivers. But it’s actually all just faith.

      Hallelujah! Or something.

  14. “Nothing is ever created or destroyed, so what?” Really?
    You dismiss Newton. Really?

    And you continue to avoid the question..

    But to the point Rob. If nothing is ever created or destroyed and yet at least one universe exists, then science points to a Creator. Einstein thought of this too but you probably reject him as well.

    The point is that, based o the evidence, the existence of God is the reasonable conclusion of many top minds of science. In fact, it takes much more faith to believe contrarywise.

    I think that will be the title of an upcoming post I will have to write. “I wish I Had the Faith of an Atheist” Or something like that. 😉

    • CCR:

      You dismiss Newton. Really?

      No, not really. As I made clear, I don’t care whether a claim was made by Newton or not. If you do, that’s fine, but that’s in the domain of History of Science–not of much interest to me here.

      And you continue to avoid the question..

      Uh, OK.

      If nothing is ever created or destroyed and yet at least one universe exists, then science points to a Creator.

      Huh? Yes, we know about one universe. One argument is that the universe actually is nothing because the positive energy is equal to the negative energy. There’s a net zero.

      Another thought: we don’t know what caused the Big Bang (or even if that’s a well-formed question). Maybe the universe is a reforming of matter that existed before. It is not the scientific consensus that our universe was formed out of nothing.

      Is your point that if science can’t answer something then God must’ve done it?

      The point is that, based o the evidence, the existence of God is the reasonable conclusion of many top minds of science.

      Not a strong argument, IMO.

      I think that will be the title of an upcoming post I will have to write. “I wish I Had the Faith of an Atheist”

      Will you have arguments? Or just claims?

  15. The argument is that if nothing can be created and things exist the best answer is found in Genesis 1.

    The “Big Bang” is a theory that is losing credibility even among scientists largely because it doesn’t make sense. It did an okay job of explaining some observations but leaves alot to be desired.

    As to Newton, you said “who cares what Newton said?”
    So you dismiss him. As well as Einstein aparrently. As well as not a few astronauts. Newton laid the foundation for modern science. His primary goal was to prove the existence of the God he knew to exist.

    • CCR:

      The argument is that if nothing can be created and things exist the best answer is found in Genesis 1.

      Why Genesis? Why not the Bhagavad Gita? Why not the creation myth from any of a thousand religions?

      The “Big Bang” is a theory that is losing credibility even among scientists largely because it doesn’t make sense.

      Cool! I’ll reject it and move on to something better once the scientific consensus changes. Wake me up when that’s the case.

      So you dismiss him.

      Nope. I’m not sure why this is hard. When the topic is the History of Science, Newton’s specific words are what matter. When the topic is Science (which I think is the domain we’re in), the scientific consensus (no matter who said them) matters.

      “X is true because famous person Y said it” means very, very little to me.

  16. Sigh….

    Here’s the deal, Rob. All the Newton, Einstein, Math and science references are examples for a point, otherwise known as the subject. Remember, I began by asking you what you believe in/trust? That is my topic. Proving the existence of God to you isn’t my desire. Nor is refuting science.

    And here’s why:

    Reason and faith are two separate things. They are contradictory at all. They are merely separate. Newton, for all his genius and attempts failed to prove the existence of God. It cannot be done. that’s part of God’s nature. Humans need to have faith before the proof is made evident. But that doesn’t make faith unreasonable. It’s very reasonable, and for those with the eyes of faith, the proof is obvious and tangible.

    Reason, especially when it takes the form of science takes faith to believe. Science makes observations and then conclusion based on the evidence. those conclusions sometimes become theories. Most theories are proven false over time or are otherwise altered by further evidence and experiments etc.. (e.g. Pluto is suddenlt NOT considered an actual planet). Science, by its nature never has things quite right, ergo, it takes faith to believe in.

    There is no dichotomy between reason and faith. They are NOT mutually exclusive and in fact both require the other in oder to function. The emperor is wearing clothes, It’s just that some lack the wherewithal to see them.

    God Bless,

    Christopher

    • Reason, especially when it takes the form of science takes faith to believe.

      Science says that “germs” cause disease. That’s a pretty crazy idea, because these “germs” are supposedly so tiny that you can’t even see them. And yet they are said to be able to kill you.

      But, by following this path, modern medicine has eradicated smallpox, turned plague from a killer into a curiosity, and done the same to dozens of other killers. Science delivers. To accept that takes trust, not faith.

      Take any puzzling aspect of germ theory (or, indeed, any part of the overall scientific consensus), and you can read or go to school and learn as much as the experts if you choose. You can ground that trust in as much evidence as you choose.

      There’s a big difference between trust in “germs cause disease” and faith in “God exists.”

      Science, by its nature never has things quite right, ergo, it takes faith to believe in.

      Seriously, you’re equating how you believe in science with how you believe in God?

      There is no dichotomy between reason and faith. They are NOT mutually exclusive and in fact both require the other in oder to function.

      I can’t think of any use I have for faith as used in “faith in God.” Am I missing something?

      The emperor is wearing clothes, It’s just that some lack the wherewithal to see them.

      Yeah, they made a children’s book about that story, I hear. And that’s exactly what they said in the book.

  17. There are other rationalities other than scientific inquiry, such as history, philosophy, and personal experience. Faith of the believer is not blind faith but faith supported by rationalism and evidence. Many axioms are required for knowledge in general (in mathematics, that the world is ordered, that thoughts are trustworthy) – these axioms make sense in light of a divine creator. That God exists is evidenced by the order, existence, and complexity of the universe. Atheism and macroevolution attempt to explain away God by obscene reductionism but are still left with the same problems. Where did matter come from? And, where did life come from?

    Where is the evidence that God does not exist? Falsification is a key component of science. There is much evidence that atheism is highly improbable. There is much evidence that macroevolution is a fallacy. Atheism is pure blindness and delusion. It is like not seeing a basketball despite it hitting your directly between the eyes. The existence of life and the universe are evidence of God’s creation.

    Scientific perceptions and understandings are BASED on worldview, linguistics, and discourse, and are therefore always subject to extreme bias. Thomas Khun demonstrated this in “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.” Scientific understanding (knowledge) is based on paradigms. These paradigms explode after enough evidence accumulates to falsify the paradigm (hence Einstein’s theory of relativity). Macroevolution is one such paradigm, it is a frame of reference used to interpret the data. The data, however, increasingly point to a universe of such complexity that it had to have been desired by a Creator. Evolutionists/atheists try to solve this problem by mixing lots and lots of time with the dearth of “evidence” in support of a crack-pot theory. The difficulty for the atheist is that evolution is THE ONLY viable explanation for the existence of aspects of the universe (although its existence in the first place cannot be explained by this paradigm).

    Moreover, natural history by definition is not science. The past cannot be measure, observed, or repeated.

    As a side note: many things have been done in the name of Christianity and Jesus, using atrocities committed by hypocrites does not prove Christianity is wrong. If people commit acts that are not sanctioned by Christianity’s founder (Jesus Christ), are they really representing Christianity or Jesus? No. Also, it makes sense, according to the Biblical worldview, that Christianity would be attacked and disparaged by the Devil in an attempt to lead people astray. Every person, however, is still responsible to the truth.

    Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He is just, and he will make all things new again. His coming Kingdom is the greatest hope for mankind. Worldly governments, societies, families, relationships will always disapoint, but Jesus won’t. He is true love. Eternity is in your heart, and you were created with a conscience (with knowledge of good and evil) – these are to point you toward God. There are answers and emptiness that you can solve – that’s because Jesus is the answer.

    • Faith of the believer is not blind faith but faith supported by rationalism and evidence.

      If “faith” = “trust,” it would avoid much confusion if believers only used the word “trust.”

      Seems to me that “faith” (that is, belief based on insufficient evidence or even in the face of disconfirming evidence) is a pretty useful word.

      That God exists is evidenced by the order, existence, and complexity of the universe.

      There’s no other explanation than God? That’s a pretty bold claim.

      Atheism and macroevolution attempt to explain away God by obscene reductionism but are still left with the same problems.

      I disagree. Before evolution we wonder, “How did life get to be the way it is?” After evolution, that problem is solved.

      Where did matter come from?

      If I could reform this into some variation of: “What caused the Big Bang?” then Science doesn’t have an answer. Science doesn’t have an answer for lots of things. I’m not sure what we conclude from that. Certainly not, “God exists”!

      And, where did life come from?

      Yes, abiogenesis is also unresolved by science. Again, so what?

      Where is the evidence that God does not exist?

      I’ve made 4 or 5 posts in this blog on that subject.

      There is much evidence that atheism is highly improbable.

      Oh? Give me some.

      There is much evidence that macroevolution is a fallacy.

      Huh?! Dude, it’s the scientific consensus!

      The existence of life and the universe are evidence of God’s creation.

      That’s an interpretation, not evidence.

      Scientific perceptions and understandings are BASED on worldview, linguistics, and discourse, and are therefore always subject to extreme bias.

      “Extreme bias”? Anything humans do will be imperfect, of course, but when you look at what science has given us, it does a pretty decent job of revealing the world to us. What has religion done that’s comparable?

      in support of a crack-pot theory.

      Evolution is a crackpot theory?? Wow–where I begin … ? 😀

      The difficulty for the atheist is that evolution is THE ONLY viable explanation for the existence of aspects of the universe (although its existence in the first place cannot be explained by this paradigm).

      Evolution is only an explanation for why life is the way it is.

      As a side note: many things have been done in the name of Christianity and Jesus, using atrocities committed by hypocrites does not prove Christianity is wrong.

      I agree, but note that you can find justification for just about anything you want in the Bible. Genocide, slavery, polygamy, …

      • “If “faith” = “trust,” it would avoid much confusion if believers only used the word “trust.”

        Seems to me that “faith” (that is, belief based on insufficient evidence or even in the face of disconfirming evidence) is a pretty useful word.”

        — I would define faith as belief in something unseen, which is the Biblical definition.

        “There’s no other explanation than God? That’s a pretty bold claim.”

        — It is a bold claim but a rational one. The simplest of man-made order is immediately recognized; yet, the complex order observed in the universe is explained by spontaneous evolution? Complexity from simplicity is a reverse order of the basic understandings of physics and even genetics (the only answer is to give everything lots of time — then the impossible is somehow magically possible).

        Regarding life and matter: The inability of science to come up with an explanation demonstrates the very frailty of science to explain the past to begin with. You don’t seem to recognize the difference between history and science. Also, if the beginning of life and matter are outside the realm of natural explanation their beginnings beg a supernatural explanation.

        Regarding macroevolution: All of the examples for evolution actually observed in nature are microadapations: changes within species, genetic isolation of preexisting genetic information, 1 or 2 step mutations on the single cell level, etc. Macroevolution has never been observed. Nor is their the massive amount of skeletal remains Darwin said would exist demonstrating transitional species. Many supposed missing links have proven to be hoaxes or fraud.

        Consensus: Never a good thing to base beliefs on – not logical or prudent.

        ““Extreme bias”? Anything humans do will be imperfect, of course, but when you look at what science has given us, it does a pretty decent job of revealing the world to us. What has religion done that’s comparable?”

        –Again science is different that history. Religious beliefs have resulted in constructive and destructive consequences. The greatest benefit to humanity is found in truth. Science itself owes it origins to men of faith who believed the universe could be understood rationally as it was created by a rational being. They believe order existed in the universe and that there were constants that could be relied on. Science and math depend on many axioms that require faith. THat your thoughts correspond with reality and time requires faith.

        I say crack-pot theory because it personally astounds me. LIfe from non-life? A cell with the complexity of a nasa space shuttle from a “primordial soup.” It’s hilarious.

        Evolution is indeed AN explanation for why some of life is the way it is. Change does indeed occur and science can indeed explain the causes and mechanics of many changes. Science cannot, however, explain much of life. If you only believe what is provable by science, through empiricism, you’re missing out on a lot of life and its meanings.

        “I agree, but note that you can find justification for just about anything you want in the Bible. Genocide, slavery, polygamy, …”

        –sure people can misread a lot of things for their own use, including “scientific evidence.” The BIble in its fullness clearly teaches against all the things you just listed. Evolution and scientific racism were behind the greatest act of violence the world has ever seen.

        • Complexity from simplicity is a reverse order of the basic understandings of physics and even genetics (the only answer is to give everything lots of time — then the impossible is somehow magically possible).

          Evolution is the scientific consensus. I don’t know what we laymen can do but accept it as the best explanation we have at the moment.

          Regarding life and matter: The inability of science to come up with an explanation demonstrates the very frailty of science to explain the past to begin with.

          Science can’t come up with an explanation for what? For abiogenesis? True, but so what?

          I’m missing the frailty. Science delivers—just look at the thing these words are on if you need a reminder.

          Also, if the beginning of life and matter are outside the realm of natural explanation their beginnings beg a supernatural explanation.

          If the beginnings are supernatural, then they’re supernatural. I agree with you there, but I’m not sure how that advances the conversation.

          As for your arguments against evolution, I suggest you temper your input from Creationist sites with some from sites that give you the scientific consensus. I recommend http://www.talkorigins.org/ if you haven’t tried that one.

          Consensus: Never a good thing to base beliefs on – not logical or prudent.

          Oh? Give me an alternative to the scientific consensus.

          The greatest benefit to humanity is found in truth.

          And … ?

          Science itself owes it origins to men of faith who believed the universe could be understood rationally as it was created by a rational being.

          I’m not sure where you’re going with this. I’m guessing that you’re agreeing with me that science delivers?

          Science and math depend on many axioms that require faith.

          That are built on trust. Evidence-based trust. A pretty good foundation, IMO.

          I say crack-pot theory because it personally astounds me.

          Uh … have you read up on quantum physics? Stop wasting your time with evolution and go crack some heads together in that group of scientists. That stuff completely throws common sense out the window. Effects without causes? Quantum entanglement where a change in one particle causes an instantaneous change in another that’s miles away? Complete nonsense.

          It’s all been very thoroughly verified, so we know it’s accurate. But still, it’s nonsense.

          But if you have no problem with quantum physics, then drop your whining about evolution being counterintuitive. Better: read up on it so it won’t strike you as such.

          LIfe from non-life? A cell with the complexity of a nasa space shuttle from a “primordial soup.” It’s hilarious.

          So how do we explain abiogenesis instead?

          Wait a minute … don’t tell me … we imagine a supernatural something-or-other that poofed it all into existence by magic, right?!

          Say, this religion stuff sure can cut through a lot of red tape! Sweet!

          If you only believe what is provable by science, through empiricism, you’re missing out on a lot of life and its meanings.

          What do you mean? If you give me a reason for something within nature but you don’t ground it in evidence (y’know—empiricism), why should that reason be meaningful?

          sure people can misread a lot of things for their own use…

          “Misread”?? Tell me how people who find genocide, slavery, and polygamy in the Bible are misreading it!

          The BIble in its fullness clearly teaches against all the things you just listed.

          Whoa—you’re joking, right?

          Evolution and scientific racism were behind the greatest act of violence the world has ever seen.

          I doubt it, but let’s imagine that you’re right. What does this have to do with the topic at hand, whether evolution is a correct explanation or not?

          And you do see, I hope, that there’s a difference between science (evolution, which explains why life is the way it is) and eugenics (which is a policy)? Science and policy are two very different things.

  18. Hello Bob it’s me again

    I prayed for you Bob, I care for your eternity, like i care for all folks’, but it seems in vain with you. Every argument we believers through at you, you rebuke in (un)reasonable manner, like all atheist do, and i know why you do it.
    But if you’d choose to believe and trust Christ(like so many great minds of science did and still do, of which i’m sure you’re aware) you would find it easy to see not only the joy and hope that comes with it, but THE TRUTH, the absolute would make sense, history would make sense, nature would make sense, humankind would make sense, the whole univers fits in His scheme, His holy plan would be revealed to your trusting heart, your whole life will change and you will finally know TRUE LOVE and truly be free.

    You say you trust so much this established “scientific” consensus, but who established it anyways? and with what reason? yours? Why are they covering up so much biblical archeological evidence like the flood and giants? why do they use very few bones here and there to make-believe a fake missing link just to prove their faith? they demystify myths as being absolute fables of untruth, but every ancient culture speaks of divine beings mingling with the humans to create super races(like the Bible says about the fallen angels). No body can explain Ancient Egypt without extreme witchcraft, and what about the UFO’s of today, which the great researchers of the field have concluded is in fact a spiritual phenomenon? and the paranormal and supernatural of the evil side? all fake? Why is everybody fighting against the true followers of Christ even until today, they being non violent, you could just rebuke them like you do, with words and “SCIENCE(FICTION). But would you also love to have and kill us in the near future, if led so by a possible apparition of the CNN-LIVE-Miracle Making FALSE WORLD MESSIAH in your life time? What about devil worship in high places? – the Luciferian Government and Corporations destroying the Christian liberty principles based US original constitution and from America infesting the whole World? Why is the Media struggling so hard to worship this devil(i can prove you: just challenge me!) if he doesn’t exist? Why all the brain wash and mind control to pave the way for that Antichrist- if it’s all myth?
    How can you deny spiritualism? it’s all over the place, bad spirits yes. Proving to you the devil is real(with the evil spirits), would be easier, because when you call them, they come to have fun fooling with you. But you truly knowing the dark side would only make you embrace it. After a big scare(very funny moment to see the reaction on your face) you would bow down to the devil, unable to repent, because you’re heart is of stone.
    I will still pray for you…only Christ can work the miracle of your turning around 180degrees to face reality.

    ps. the genocide in the Bible were of the Nephilim races(the super strong human angel hybrids of old renown) put there by Satan for obvious reasons.
    Slavery was not condoned but also not rebuked(most were house servants, who were better of with their masters then being poor alone – a good system for those days, if the masters were good and correct with their servants){the majority are social labour slaves today which is extremely bad! – so why complain?
    as for polygamy, yes the big names had many wives, some were even cousins, God didn’t say he liked it, nor did He specifically condemn it(the perfect pair though is still one man-one woman),. Men loved it anyways, and women were taken care of and the household had more children. I would never take even two nowadays, even one is sort of difficult to manage, right?:) And on what moral bases do you find polygamy offensive anyways? or are you also on the dark side of sex and don’t like women that much?

    take care

    • Every argument we believers through at you, you rebuke in (un)reasonable manner, like all atheist do

      Unreasonable? If you mean more than that I simply disagree with you, clarify your point.

      you would find it easy to see not only the joy and hope that comes with it, but THE TRUTH, the absolute would make sense, history would make sense, nature would make sense, humankind would make sense …

      I reject Christianity precisely because it doesn’t make sense of the world, any more than any other religion does.

      You say you trust so much this established “scientific” consensus

      Don’t you? Don’t you trust that the plane will fly like the science of aerodynamics says it will or that the antibiotic will make you well, like medicine says it will?

      why do they use very few bones here and there to make-believe a fake missing link just to prove their faith?

      If you’d read something besides Creationist web sites (or sites that similarly push a pro-Christian message), you might discover a marvelous world out there. Science explains things far better than 3000-year-old religious dogma does.

      But would you also love to ha ve and kill us in the near future, if led so by a possible apparition of the CNN-LIVE-Miracle Making FALSE WORLD MESSIAH in your life time?

      Have you seen bottles of Dr. Bronner’s soap? You’re starting to sound like him.

      No, I don’t desire to kill all believers.

      the Luciferian Government

      ?? You need to get out a little more or hang around different groups of people or up your meds.

      destroying the Christian liberty principles based US original constitution

      Have you read the Constitution? 100% secular.

      the genocide in the Bible were of the Nephilim races(the super strong human angel hybrids of old renown) put there by Satan for obvious reasons.

      The tribes are named in Deut, Numbers, 1 Sam., and elsewhere: Hittites, Canaanites, Amalekites, Midianites and others. These were ordinary people, not Nephilim.

      And you’re defending genocide? Doesn’t that sound wrong to you?

      Slavery was not condoned

      Slavery was regulated! How much more condoned could it be?

      the majority are social labour slaves today which is extremely bad! – so why complain?

      Is that your final answer? You’re saying that the institution of biblical slavery was A-OK in your eyes and would be acceptable to reintroduce into modern society??

      • about slavery, i think i wasn’t clear enough, i’m just saying that by partaking in this modern society with all it’s deeds and dos you are more of a slave (and not even being aware of it) than in the ancient Jewish society.
        it’s clear to me you think i’m a freak, a lunatic, a “crazy” person like a false brother tried to put me, my beliefs stand strong in the Bible, and are the pure beliefs of the first and true Christians, these apostates of today are too busy whoring themselves with the world(in ignorance, but it’s their fault, they are told and don’t want to listen). I know you appreciate the apostates more, they aren’t screaming like i am, i’m a faulty sinner as well, but at least i believe the Bible, not some fake manipulated, poison mingled with truth corporate book, calling itself the Word of God.
        But I’ve seen behind the mask of this world, seen it’s evil with the source and it’s means of control, which you probably will deny even if an illumined mystery school priest came with it’s demons to initiate you with the occult secrets of masses control, you would probably think it’s good, or?

        Your reply didn’t try to clarify me, but i guess i ain’t clarifying you either. I could sound desperate, but talking about this devil conspiracy is nothing new, i am assured you know many details of it as well. i am just worried because so very few know the truth, but you know as well as i do there is something terribly wrong with humankind and it’s leadership, and the US did lose many constitutional rights, and is going to lose so much more soon. My faith is vane to you, but your reason is unreasonable to me(that’s why i used the brackets).
        I think i wasn’t specific with the “science” bit either, but you gave me “real science” facts as examples, that proves nothing, because my attack would be on that part in the science establishment that is against The Word of God.
        and tell me what is so great in this world? ha? see what?because what i see is the Media + all the other Industrial Complexes, which are rapidly rotting away our people – destroying their souls and health and you say just enjoy it? and this is the establishment. which banned the Bible in public institutions and took it away as the foundation of society, you’ve seen the downfall afterwords.(in freedom and morality and every other facet of society)

        • about slavery, i think i wasn’t clear enough, i’m just saying that by partaking in this modern society with all it’s deeds and dos you are more of a slave (and not even being aware of it) than in the ancient Jewish society.

          Then let me repeat my challenge: you’re saying that you’d be OK reinstituting OT-style slavery in the US today?

          And you didn’t respond to any of the challenges I gave you in my last comment.

          and tell me what is so great in this world?

          We can probably agree on many things that are wrong, but one biggie is disease (or lack thereof). Among other miracles, modern medicine has eliminated smallpox (which killed 500,000,000 in the 20th century alone).

          Jesus? He could’ve done the same thing apparently, but he cursed a fig tree and left it at that. 🙂

          banned the Bible in public institutions

          If you’re referring to the First Amendment, which eliminated any religious action by the government (not just Christian), then I’ll happily say Amen to that!

  19. Though i think society is evil, I enjoy meeting and helping people, of all needs creeds and and colors, i’m not trying to judge anyone, just spread some love and truth. i think i could be a fatalist though, because i’m of the opinion the world is gonna end soon. i’m not giving a date, ain’t forming a sect to wait for it, ain’t gonna lament too long, but i will try to warn people: JUDGEMENT IS COMING, pretty soon
    By the way i have one more final question: why not personally tackle the supernatural and try to debunk it? take a spirit board and call em(can’t believe i came to suggest this), but probably they won’t appear because they know i suggested it to you, and by you interacting with them you are in danger of being too close to the truth…the logic of it
    the part of me defending myself is because i felt looked down upon for believing “crazy stuff”, from my point of view your but i never supposed i was normal anyways, Christians aren’t supposed to be anyways.
    I think i will stop posting here anyways, i’m aware this isn’t the platform to wake people up, and you are too sure of your convictions, and why reason? These discussion don’t lead anywhere( though It developed a pretty long thread of discussions about God ) because you just point out the Bible is a fairy tale and i should indoctrinate myself with some secular material, and i’m saying quit living in fantasy land and open your eyes to the Truth that is Yeshua Our Maker and Saviour, before you die and lose all hope!

    Be blessed

    • bob you do want me to sound crazy…..
      you can’t figure out the bible is supernatural or how did those ages function, what slavery? can’t you see you are a slave right now?!?! it was a social construct, it wasn’t condemned because it’s a construct similar to what God wants of his children to serve Him, that’s all. God is holy and just, men are incapable of being good “masters”, so no it should never exist again on the face of the earth!! i don’t agree with your challenges, you din’t accept mine either

      • bob you do want me to sound crazy…..

        No, but you’re handling that part fine all by yourself. 😉

        i don’t agree with your challenges, you din’t accept mine either

        If I’ve left a challenge unanswered, point that out to me.

  20. you praise man for inventing cures for drugs, yet the same mankind slowly infects itself to death ingesting poisons and fats that are sold as food, developing cancers and AIDS for macabre purposes

  21. Yeah he’s nuts because he thinks he’s winning. He’s talking though about the same New World Order as many world leaders today do. My belief based on Revelation 17 is that actually the control comes from the Vatican. they surely have the means and know how, they’re on it for the last 1800 years or so…do you really think a global politic system together with a unified religion and economics, and all that stuff is in fact good for the people. I think they will one day achieve it, as the Bible states they will, My question to you now is pertinent enough, will you believe the Bible, when you will see the Temple in Jerusalem rebuilt and a United World Leader declaring himself to be god in it?

  22. I’d just like to apologize. The reason people, not just you, don’t see God in the world is because we as Christians are too busy with our own inner fightings in the Church to actually be the Church. As the Church, we are called to love others, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, widow, and imprisoned, and be Jesus’ hands and feet on Earth. We don’t do our job, and the world doesn’t see God. God uses everyday people to accomplish his work on Earth. They can be Christians or non-Christians. However, my point remains: people don’t see God as real because the Church doesn’t act where it is supposed to. Although I can’t speak for the Church, I can apologize for my own inaction in this area. And so I do. I apologize for being so often inactive in my faith which leads to an invisibility of God in the world.

    • The apology is thoughtful but not necessary. And perhaps not even relevant.

      It’s difficult to walk the walk of whatever philosophy/religion guides or informs your life. But even if Christians did that perfectly, that would still be a natural phenomenon with a natural explanation. It wouldn’t provide atheists with what they’re asking for: evidence that the remarkable God claims are valid.

      • Well I don’t think you want any proof, even if an angel came slapping you in the face, you still would refuse to believe.
        i’ve watched your st. hawkings video and it sucks big time. i’m telling you, you have a religion, there is no science in that, no evidence whatsoever.
        you claim now that the coming world leader is no threat to you, and not even sufficient proof of prophecy, but think again when and if you get to see it(with all his miracles). you know they’re planning for it(it’s all over the news), these world cabal follow lucifer, they believe in him, we trust God will deliver, but you seem to believe in nothing -THE BIG NOTHING – from where you come and where you’ll go (why bother living then, for what for nothing!?:))- tell this to anyone who hasn’t heard of the big bang theory and they’ll just laugh at your face, it’s that preposterous. If you really think like there is no God why not indulge in all sins possible at least enjoy the ride to hell, what’s stopping you?
        But i need to know Bob, and please forgive me for being so insistent, what kind of sign, or proof would you need to believe? because it’s clear to me you just don’t want to, something in your mind and heart happened which keeps you from that. and have you ever believed in something, besides THE BIG NOTHING:))? sorry i can’t help it
        IMO you are very very deceived and are being used, but then again the majority of the people are, the dark side is very effective

        • Well I don’t think you want any proof, even if an angel came slapping you in the face, you still would refuse to believe.

          I accept quantum physics, and that’s completely nonsensical. I accept your existence, which is commonplace. God’s existence is much like your existence; why isn’t the evidence there? My request for evidence is quite reasonable, and my doubt in the face of trivial evidence is also reasonable.

          i’m telling you, you have a religion, there is no science in that, no evidence whatsoever.

          So all science has no evidence? Even the science behind computers and communications that we use right now?

          Or is it only the science that you don’t like that has no evidence?

          you claim now that the coming world leader is no threat to you, and not even sufficient proof of prophecy

          World history takes turns in the positive and negative direction. Ask 1000 people for dramatic predictions of the future, and a few will turn out right, just by luck. And we sort of have that in the Bible right now. Whatever happens, you can go to this book or that book and say, “See? If you’d only understood the Bible, you’d know that it predicts things like this.” We’ve had dictators that threatened the world in the past 100 years, so yeah, it’s possible that it’ll happen again. Since your prediction is hopelessly vague, I don’t see it “coming true” as all that marvelous.

          why bother living then, for what for nothing!?:)

          You’re saying that you don’t know why atheists live? Why they have kids and go on vacations and take pride in their work and give their money to good causes? For the same reasons you do.

          If you really think like there is no God why not indulge in all sins possible at least enjoy the ride to hell, what’s stopping you?

          Seriously, do you think before you write? Or is it just unedited stream of consciousness?

          You think that after I murder someone, the cops are going to say, “Oh, you’re an atheist! Sorry to trouble you sir. Have a nice day!” and then let me go?? Atheists live in a society with rules (that they helped to make) and consequences. Atheists have friends and family who trust in them and depend on them.

          Y’know, just like Christians.

          what kind of sign, or proof would you need to believe?

          The same kind of proof that you would need for the other guy’s religion! For you to discard Christianity and adopt Hinduism or Sikhism or Shintoism, you’d need some pretty dramatic evidence. That’s what I’m talking about. And once again, we think alike.

  23. The Holy Spirit which glorifies Christ has shown me many things that
    I can hardly express in words. Christian Sermons has come out
    many times that has affirmed the Holy Spirit has touched many other.
    Christian Sermons are truly a means to express at
    least to an extent the ability of Jesus Christ.
    Christian Sermons can convict you and practically force you to come to terms with the ability of Jesus Christ.

    Several Years ago I prayed and prayed for God to show me the light, the way, and
    the path for my motive. How God could bless others through me.

    I didn’t need to waste time learning the hard way of not following the way of Christ. Enoch is an exceptional example of man that walked with God and was taken or interpreted. Christian Sermons hopes I’ve had and
    validated the reply to a lot of prayers. Even though
    you love God you may very well (if not definitely) still sin but you
    can do the best that you can to prevent temptations that
    lead to sin.
    I come from the family that preaches the Gospel and
    Christian Sermons are a wonderful way to spread the word of God.
    It really is crystal clear for the Bible.
    Genuine Christian Sermons will always support
    or validate this.

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